Interviews with Italian nuclear professionals in France

SPIN Associate, engineer, and central figure for the Italian community in Cadarache and Provence, Flavio has dedicated part of his free time to the establishment of an inclusive community of Italian nuclear professionals.

1. Flavio, you left Italy for France before the 1987 referendum, when the Italian nuclear program still existed and, with it, the opportunities to work in a field that, seen with the eyes of that time, offered promises of expansion. What were you pursuing (or fleeing) professionally?

Like almost everyone, my career choices were not the result of reasoning based solely on the prospects of the nuclear industry in Italy and France and the different opportunities they offered. Instead, they were the consequence of a series of opportunities, circumstances, and personal choices. My career began in '79; I graduated in mechanical engineering with a focus on energy domain. My first two job offers came from a pump manufacturer in Milan and Nucleare Italiana Reattori Avanzati (NIRA), based in Genoa. NIRA was involved in the Superphénix project. Since my university studies, I had developed a certain interest in nuclear energy, and so I chose to go to NIRA. Shortly after my hiring, I was unexpectedly offered the opportunity to spend some time in Cadarache to replace a colleague at a research center for the Superphénix project. I accepted, as the project and the professional prospects could only attract my interest; besides, I had no particular ties to Genoa, which is not my hometown. A few years later, in 1983, NIRA offered me the opportunity to return to Italy to work on the Prova Elementi Combustibile (PEC) reactor in Brasimone, but I decided to resign from NIRA and stay in Provence, where I had settled. At the time, I greatly appreciated how French people were able to recognize and reward quality work and achieved results. Beyond my work, I also appreciated the quality of life in Provence, the climate, the environment, the beauty of the region, and the quality of services guaranteed by the French state, far superior to what I had known in Italy. I then started working at CISI (Compagnie Internationale de Services Informatiques, a subsidiary of CEA), where I handled mechanical sizing calculations for a wide variety of companies in the region, including the French Navy. I decided to take French nationality and later was hired by Technicatome (another CEA subsidiary). In 1996, I moved from Technicatome to CEA, where I was first responsible for a laboratory, then for the nuclear technology service, and later for the nuclear measurements and probability service. I then temporarily interrupted my career at CEA to serve at the Ministry of Research, where I followed the funding allocated to research institutions in the region on behalf of the Government. Finally, I returned to CEA to handle relations with local authorities.

2. In France, the need to renew the nuclear fleet is reactivating an industrial fabric slowed down by the last few decades characterized by serious hesitations regarding the future of national energy policy. On the other hand, globally, the climate emergency is giving a push to nuclear energy, which seems to be making its way even in environmentalist discourse, weakening old anti-nuclear positions. In short, it seems we are facing a new “nuclear renaissance.” Italy, however, seems unable to take a clear position: it is invited to the Nuclear Alliance launched by Minister Agnès Pannier-Runacher but is not an official member, and some of its industries sign collaboration agreements with major foreign groups (e.g., Ansaldo Nucleare with EDF) which are evidently very cautious about the prospect of building in Italy. On the political level, there is a lot of confusion and there are no significant attempts to build a shared and technically credible position, i.e., to meet the minimum requirements for developing a nuclear program. What do you think about a possible return to nuclear power in Italy?

Nuclear energy production is a fundamental tool to save our planet. The crisis that has traversed and still traverses the nuclear industry stems partly from opposition movements that mainly feed on ideological arguments rather than technical-economic ones. A totally irrational approach thus opposes scientific arguments. Evidently, the former has an easier hold on most people, especially those who have not received technical-scientific training, and uses modern mass communication means with enormous "penetration power" compared to traditional media, which, due to the nature of the underlying algorithms, tend to favour users' access to content with which they mostly agree. The result is that one ends up believing more and more in what one already believes, simply because the opposing thought is rarely explored. Of course, this is not the only aspect: the powerful oil industry has an interest in maintaining this state of affairs and has ample means—financial and of pressure—to do so. In this context, it is very difficult to imagine a plausible change in strategy in Italy that happens through a referendum. On the other hand, it is very likely that the referendum route would lead to the abandonment of nuclear power in any country in the world, despite the fact that it is recognized as an effective weapon for an energy policy against the greenhouse effect. I therefore think that only courageous political choices, made by stable governments capable of building a consensus that goes beyond their political color, at least on specific issues like energy supply, can lead to a significant strategic reorientation in energy matters. Italy is no exception, and therefore nuclear power can be relaunched only with a government of this kind.

3. Flavio, you are not just an engineer, you also have a literary talent. How did this inclination come about, and how did you pursue it to the point of publishing “Frugando nel passato” (Delving into the past)?

I have always tried to use writing as a personal psychotherapeutic tool (smile). Whenever I am overwhelmed by strong emotions, I write a short story and reread it years later. It is a way to store my moods, to keep them in a format accessible to memory. Most of these stories are descriptions of moods; the facts told are the pretext and, although not necessarily happened, are plausible. Once retired, since I had time and already written material, I decided to collect the various stories, creating a connecting thread that united them and trying to explore, so to speak, literarily, some mechanisms of the brain. In particular, I wanted to explore memory aspects that have always fascinated me. Putting this book together, in Italian and French, then publishing it, was a wonderful experience that I recommend to everyone.

4. Flavio, can you tell us more about the origins of the “Italian lunch” in Cadarache, an example of an inclusive Italian community open to Italian-French integration?

My "integration" into French society was almost immediate and, in any case, without any difficulty, but I have always tried to maintain a strong bond with Italy, cultivating what I consider its most important component: its culture, in the broadest sense of the term. Together with other Italians who shared this cultural need, we gradually brought together an Italian community in Cadarache, primarily to create opportunities to speak Italian but also to stay updated on Italian current events. Over time, these meetings took the form of lunches held in a festive atmosphere, where information about Italy was exchanged, and discussions about Italian culture took place. The Italian tables in the Cadarache canteen did not go unnoticed either for their sound level or for the good humour and cheerfulness that transpired. Over time, several French friends expressed their interest and often a kind of passion for the Italian language and culture and began to participate in these exchanges, making them evidently even more interesting. The success of these "meetings" then prompted me to organize an annual party in my garden, which allowed us to also gather our families, giving an even broader and more intense dimension to our meetings. Apart from a forced break due to the COVID epidemic, I continue to organize these parties, which bring me great joy.

Italian version : https://www.edilivre.com/frugando-nel-passato-flavio-de-magistris.html

French version : https://www.edilivre.com/en-fouillant-dans-le-passe-flavio-de-magistris.html

Claudio Pescatore holds a degree in Physics from the University of Bologna and a PhD in Nuclear Engineering from the University of Illinois. In his international career, primarily between the United States and France, Claudio Pescatore was responsible for the performance assessment group for radioactive waste repositories at Brookhaven National Laboratory from 1981 to 1992. Subsequently, he held various positions at the Nuclear Energy Agency, including Principal Administrator for radioactive waste management and decommissioning. Claudio is an international expert with over 40 years of experience in radioactive waste management and decommissioning.

1. Claudio, throughout your career, you've encountered various countries and different aspects of the field of nuclear energy. The fact that you began your training in Italy and now live in France makes you a "nuclear professional in France," but in your case, aside from the fact that you worked in the USA for fifteen years, the qualification may be somewhat limiting. Your contributions - as evidenced by your work - include, but also go beyond, the disciplines usually defined as "nuclear science and technology." Do you think your career reflects in any way the particularities of the Italian educational system, which, compared to others, may be more open and flexible?

Our education system, while proposing disciplinary orientations from the end of compulsory schooling (technical, linguistic, classical, scientific, artistic, etc.), does so by preserving, in each curriculum and to a reasonable extent, something of the others, maintaining a certain attention towards so-called general culture. So, an Italian who has completed high school and then earned a university degree, regardless of their field of specialization, may have solid knowledge of other disciplines. This means that even a “technician” retains some humanistic aspects (and naturally, the opposite is also true). According to the italian saying "learn the art and put it aside," one day it may turn useful even professionally.

2. How do you think things are in France? From your point of view, what are the virtues of a class of technically prepared executives, extremely specialized, whose education is characterized by a clear and early professionalization, compared to professionals equally prepared but with a broader spectrum of interests and skills, sometimes bordering on areas far from the exercise of the profession?

The Italian education system does indeed allow for eclectic educational paths, to a certain extent, providing a rather broad preparation. I graduated from a classical high school and then obtained a degree in physics. At that time, it was thought that with a classical high school diploma, one could excel in all university courses, whereas in France, priority was given to a scientific high school diploma. At the beginning of university courses, I could translate perfectly from ancient Greek but didn't know what a derivative was. However, I successfully overcame the difficulties this entailed. After a few years dedicated to neutron calculations and their extension to rarefied gases, I specialized in the USA in the properties of nuclear glasses, also training in fields linked to nuclear waste disposal, such as hydrogeology and materials science. To be tackled holistically and productively, final disposal of waste requires reflections and skills broader than those strictly engineering-scientific of everyday life. For example, the timescales involved don't allow for the adoption of usual - albeit not trivial - modelling and simulation methods, and even require assuming epistemological postures incompatible with the naive scientism that sometimes appears in people who have studied scientific disciplines without ever asking themselves what kind of knowledge science can bring to light. It's very likely that the education I received in Italy partly prepared me to address the type of problems raised by geological waste disposal, at least by fostering my appetite for some aspects of the problem that elude strictly technical approaches. That said, I couldn't say whether the Italian education system is more effective than, for example, the French one, which, in addition to its tendency to provide a very clear and fairly early disciplinary direction, it is also characterized by its elitism. In France, a certain eclecticism is found in the so-called "grandes écoles," high-level secondary educational institutions that provide very broad preparations in terms of disciplinary spectrum, combining so-called curricular subjects with complementary disciplines that contribute to the training of the ruling class. It's not unusual for a polytechnicien or a normalien to have taken courses in sociology, philosophy, etc. Of course, in France, this approach is reserved for elites, and I wouldn't say that, from the perspective of society's functioning and - in particular - public administration, this yields unsatisfactory results.

3.     There are several things that make the nuclear industry very special compared to others. Firstly, it carries the burden of being perceived by many as a by-product of a weapon of mass destruction. Moreover, despite being required – in many countries, including France, and rightly so - to take responsibility for the waste it produces over very long time horizons, it is still considered by a significant portion of the population as a potential cause of harmful environmental consequences. I have the impression that if nuclear experts remain entrenched in their field of specialization, it's practically impossible for the nuclear professional community to break through the doubts or reservations of those who are unconvinced or even opposed to the use of nuclear energy for civilian purposes.

Do you think technical experts should also be able to explain the meaning of their profession and their technological beliefs to people engaged in entirely different domains, and furthermore, should they strive to comprehend the motivations of others, even when those motivations extend into psychological realms that are sometimes detached from the rationality of science? In doing so, should they adopt a stance that is not only technical but also humanistic?

Absolutely. There's no doubt that the technician must understand how nuclear is perceived by non-specialists and be able to understand the questions that society legitimately raises and therefore to dialogue with it, avoiding entrenching themselves in the unproductive conviction of being in the right. Nuclear, precisely because of the problems it raises and its potential to solve some challenges of enormous magnitude, must be integrated into society, rather than being isolated from it. Engineers must not only be able to show confidence in the analyses they propose, but they must also feel the need to argue for and spread their confidence, even within areas of thought that may be hostile.. In the case of geological repositories for radioactive waste, when I worked at the Nuclear Energy Agency (NEA) of the OECD I tried to affirm this principle by creating and promoting, the "Forum of Stakeholder Confidence." Also during that time, I introduced, as part of the safety analysis of geological repositories, the concept of a "safety case," which is broader and encompasses the old concept of "performance assessment." Through the "safety case," we aim not only to detail the technical-scientific knowledge and analyses but also to illustrate the confidence of specialists in a particular storage site design, for example, by developing the technical reasons that led to each choice, their robustness, and the reasons why it prevailed over alternative options. This aspect is fundamental because, as mentioned earlier, it's difficult to base such analyses on irrefutable demonstrations simply because the time scales involved in these types of installations don't reasonably allow them to be reproducible like scientific experiments would be. Thus, in principle, the "safety case" must illustrate the paths that led to the definition of the design, indicating which doubts arose and was resolved to arrive at a specific proposal and, at the same time, provide evidence of confidence in various technical choices. Also part of this “modus operandi” is the concept of reversibility, introducing into the design and management of the project the possibility to readjust or even reverse each decision if new facts indicate that a given choice is no longer adequate or that other options prove to be more appropriate.

4.     You have delved into the transmission of information, knowledge, and memory regarding nuclear waste repositories. Today, we may have an idea of the information that needs to be preserved and transmitted to future generations, but those future generations will likely have a different perspective on the same issues. Imagining the evolution of thought and society - and therefore the type of information needed hundreds or thousands of years from now - requires not only technical reasoning but also sociological, even anthropological hypotheses, questioning what should be the most useful and effective future memory of the past. These types of considerations are typically beyond the cultural scope of a technician. Yet, they are crucial issues, not only for society but also for the industry contributing to long-term storage solutions. I believe that the disposition (structured by education) to be interested in these aspects and the disciplines that allow for their effective examination gives great value to a training that preserves a part of eclecticism. What do you think?

I agree that an eclectic cultural background enhances one's ability to address these issues. However, the necessity to speculate about future societies in order to determine the most effective method of preserving memory may be less imperative than one might think. The information considered relevant - avoiding overly restrictive assumptions - will be transmitted with a scheme that can be updated and passed down from one generation to another. For example, in the case of high-activity, long-lived radioactive waste geological storage sites, the information could be structured on three levels:

·   Detailed technical information

·   Succinct extract of technical information

·   Information on the process that led to the definition of the waste storage approach and site design needed to accommodate them, including discussions with various stakeholders.

This third level would be summarized in a Key Information File (KIF), which is reviewed and updated periodically to incorporate new relevant details and emerging aspects over time. The KIF would also provide indications on the location of similar deposits in other nations and on centres where information is collected. Keeping this documentation alive in different places, in different languages, and on different formats is crucial. However, relying solely on one method of transmission would not be safe. It would be necessary to conceive and implement other complementary ways of transmitting both memory and information aimed at restoring it in case of loss. The only way to ensure that a fact or an artifact becomes part of collective memory is for it to permeate society until it becomes part of the traditional apparatus, i.e., the system of practices and collective memories transmitted in multiple ways, more or less institutionalized: from documents to stories, from history to representation, from steles to archives and Time Capsules. These considerations, evidently, do not apply solely to the memory of geological storage sites and would be equally useful for other types of hazardous waste or materials (from mercury storage to landmines scattered across the planet). The principles of sustainable development as outlined by the United Nations do not address memory. The fact that future generations will need information to manage waste generated in relatively distant past eras is not taken into account. This is, for the moment, a lack that is not sufficiently understood and could prove to be serious. Memory must be part of the discourse on sustainable development